Well, i was thinking. I heard and read that the Japanese take suicide more seriously, and is considered an honorable deed. Whereas we Americans and Europeans view it as something that is the last resort of the weak. Well considering our traditions I mean. So obviously a comparison can't be made, but still i would like to hear your opinion, as personally i am highly against suicide.
And I may disappear completely, my existence, my consciousness, everything, I will close my eyes, and there will be a blackness... no not even blackness, nothingness. Like a deaf, mute, blind person whose nerves are dead due to leprosy or something.
Not THE other side but whatever waits for us when we die.
There should be no real fear of death itself; it's what the state of being before the conception that gave rise to 'you' was; it's like the state of your knowledge and conscious when you are in deep alpha sleep.
The fear arises from the root instinct of self preservation--survival. The fear, which the brain interprets as a fear of death, is actually a fear of not living--which, though it may sound the same, is different in nuance.
there is a difference between suicide and self sacrifice...
If we were to carefully weigh all the elements of why such a view could be, I am quite convinced that we'd find a contradiction, and by extension, fault in the claim. 'Self-sacrifice,' as well described in scorpion da black's post, is suicide for the in-group as opposed to the out-group; regardless of scale of size. Even in the situation where person A allows themself to be killed or to die, so that person B can survive, what we see is an in-group continuity act. In other words, it is suicide for a reason.
However, all suicide is suicide for a reason, just as all killing is killing for a reason, therefore we arrive at a situation where we would have to either say that 'no suicide is productive and positive in outcome, and thus NO suicide should be thought well of in any case whatsoever' or 'sucide, simply being killing for a reason, which all nature takes part in, can thus neither be said to be productive nor unproductive, postitive in outcome nor negative in outcome, thus suicide is an individual's choice.'
Sacrificing oneself is a little different in my opinion. Its not suicide, its taking a risk. Die now, or be forced into a situation where you will probably die as well. Ages ago with no jus bellum and patriarchal slavery around it was obvious that one would rather risk death in battle.
I feel like, for me personally, suicide would be too much like 'running away' (from problems/difficulties/sadness) for me to consider it. (I have considered it in the past, and always - obviously! - decided against, hopefully once and for all...)
Not to condemn those who have done it... on the contrary I feel sorry for their sufferings and in another way see their bravery in taking that step into the unknown, as one way of looking at it... simply my personal view.
Having read through this thread I have finally decided to comment on it. I have noticed that the typical terms for suicide have turned up; easy way out, cowardly, running away and selfish. None of these really cover what suicide really is. Sarapva came the closest with post#22.
Essentially suicide is a type of psychosis that someone slips into after a suffering severe depression. Depression itself is normally a neurosis, but when it gets really bad psychosis occurs and the person can become suicidal.
A quick note on the difference between neurosis and psychosis is needed. In the case of a neurosis it is something that the sufferer knows they have and realise that it is illogical to be this way, but circumstances have led them here and they are trying to find a way out of it or just ignoring the problem. For example phobias are a type of neurosis. you know that it is stupid to be afraid of, say, spiders, clowns, even zips, but part of your brain kicks in when yopu are presented with these objects. With a neurosis, though, you can overide it either by therapy, will power, drugs or a combination of all three.
Psychosis is a different matter. To someone who is psychotic the mind sees what it does as perfectly logical. It makes sense to them and then you have to try and force the mind out of this mindset, or treat with strong drugs, as in the case of schiophrenics. It is as if the person has left the world of normal logic and entered into a different world where whatever you say is not going to change them. People who are suicidal are like this. The ey are at the bottom of the well and suddenly the minds switches to psychosis and what you or I would consider wrong, or to scared to do, become right for them.
Someone who is suicidal and truely wishes to end it all will go through all thoughts on the matter and rationalise the act to themselves. Even the actually act will be planned. They go thorough varibles on the best ways, where to do it, how to avoid being stopped. How do I know this? I did a psychology course about 15 years ago and the lecturer had attepted suicide a few years before. She said how it seemed logical to her and how she even came up with the way to do it, crossing off the ones that she thought she knew had a chance of causing her pain or not doing it right and failing. Fortunately for her she didn't factor in her nosey neighbour.
So you can' t really call them selfish because what they think they are doing is for the good of all around them and it is a selfless act they are doing. You can't call them cowards because they have no concept or it and are more likely to see it as more heroic. I also had one man confess to me that he thought those who could commit suicide as braver than he ever would be. For a normal mentally healthy person it would be. Fear of death and all that, but remember a person who is suicidal has gone beyond that fear. The same goes for easy way out and running away. They have already thought about this and suicide is the absolute logical way for them to go. They see it as the best for all around them.
Some people would find life fascinating and completely fulfilling no matter the circumstances, while others would see nothing worth living for when surrounded by a panapoly of fascinating opportunities. A lot comes down to genetics, and some to either learned or inherited skills like the ability to concentrate (a lot of people don't have the ability to concentrate for long, and concentrating without being distracted for the time needed to meet a skill-stretching challenge is necessary to the enjoyable state of flow, probably the only pleasure that isn't subject to the law of diminishing returns -->i.e. even sex gets boring if one does it a few times a day). Or they don't have the skill to see opportunities for challenges....
People really are born with a higher or lower baseline of happiness. You can see it in bold, sociable toddlers to the shy and fearful toddlers that stick close to their mother's the entire time.
Meaning to life can be a bit tricky as well. Religions used to provide that, but with religions being harder for people to believe in, new meanings to life must be found. A meaning to life has been found to be very important to the quality of people's lives.
My opinion is: life is crap by default, you have to LIVE to make it interesting. By complaining nothing is going to change, how bloody lazy one has to be to commit suicide instead of putting some effort into making his life worth living. I mean, as long as one is healthy, not dying, there's always something he can do. And in case someone is ill... well that case should obviously be discussed in the euthanasia topic.
In my opinion,everyone has a moment when they're like "I just wanna die" suicide goes both ways depending on the cause. But in the past, I've wondered,"if I did this, would the other side be better?"
life is crap by default, you have to LIVE to make it interesting.
^ That's going to be my quotation of the week... :D :cool:
even sex gets boring if one does it a few times a day
^ Interesting theory, must put it to the test. :evil:
what sparva and mycernius said is true, and it is scientifically proved.
how ever it isnt the only reason for suicides.
people dont always commit suicides out of mental illness or extreme depression.
it could be a cult, just like that cult that believed suicide is the gate way for the sky and their leader said he comunicated with aliens and he ordered them to commit suicide so they could depart to space.....
so what i am trying to point out is: some times it can be brain washing...unless you also consider brain washing as a brain damage as well.
and about Derfel said about self sacrifice:that is true as well.
self sacrifice is a mean to protect another, a fight for a cause...different from suicide in defenition...but same in act...it is some one taking his own life.
Good rules. Thank-you.
My take on suicide is this, it's permanent. You can't change your mind. I would never consider it. It's only for those who have lost all hope. You can never lose hope because who knows what tomorrow will bring. Hope is the one thing we can all count on. Now, my husbands grandmother (Japanese) killed herself at their home. She was sick and felt she was a burden. I think she did that to spare her children from taking care of her because at that time they were poor farmers. I think the other side of suicide in Japan is bringing shame on your family. People would rather kill themselves than have to live with the guilt or shame of what they have done. I guess here in the USA people can screw up and go on. Donald Trump declared bankruptcy, Bill Clinton had an affair, Martha Stewart guilty of insider trading etc...none of them killed themselves. Of course they are well known people, but it is the same for everyday people here as well. You make a mistake and you get on with life. Maybe that isn't possible in Japan?
Mycernius described very well the mental state and differences between neurosis and psychosis. However, someone can be not in a state of psychosis but still tempted to commit suicide and perhaps act on that temptation. Certainly there are some states where it's rational to the person due to mental illness but not in every case.
This type of thread has come up before, so I am posting the rules for this type of thread up, as it can cause problems. Note this thread WILL be watched very carefully.
Okay, JREF has had some problems with these types of thread in the past.
However, this could be a great thread on the topic of mortality across cultures and how societies deal with suicide. With that in mind -
Here are the rules - break them and your post will be deleted or the thread erased.
1) Do not discuss how to kill yourself.
2) Do not discuss what would push you to suicide. You do not want to be the person who gave someone the idea/rationalization.
3) Keep the discussion polite
4) Keep things on a theoretical level - ie discuss the factors in society that might make someone feel they should kill themselves and/or why this is good or bad for society (for example).
5) If you are thinking about suicide beyond an intellectual level, please, get help from someone ASAP.
6) Don't bring your problems with you to this thread.
The above is not negotiable. If you have a beef, take it to another forum. The staff reserve the right at any time to add more or modify this thread or things posted in it to remain appropriate...
...how bloody lazy one has to be to commit suicide instead of putting some effort into making his life worth living. I mean, as long as one is healthy, not dying, there's always something he can do.
This sounds obvious to people who are healthy mentally and physically, but besides a physical illness there are mental illnesses that drive people to end their lives. There's still a debate about whether mental illnesses are caused by something physical, but when a person is in a deep depression and has no hope, I can see how they'd think of suicide as a way to end their suffering. I don't think suicide actually does end it, but I can understand the logic and the feeling that there is isn't another choice (when healthy people can of course see that there are other choices). Suicide::
We provide a comprehensive overview of Suicide, addressing the nature of suicide, what to do if you are suicidal, and how to help friends or family members who are
http://resources.atcmhmr.com/poc/center_index.php?id=9&cn=9HOME |
Mind > Information > Factsheets and booklets by subject > Suicide ::
looks at suicide rates in different groups, methods used, attitudes towards Suicide and mental distress. Risk. Care and services. Strategies to help
http://www.mind.org.uk/Information/Factsheets/SuicideHOME |
I don't think there's any reason to believe in an afterlife.... so with that being said, while I can understand the despair that people feel with life, given that life usually gets brighter with age (despite a decline in health, finances, status, and other stuff), it seems a waste of a quite possibly much happier existence down the road. It is hard for a happy person to even imagine feeling sad, and a sad person to even imagine feeling happy.
That being said, I don't think we have a right to condemn those who would commit suicide with 'it's the most selfish thing ever'. Happier people are more likely to be a lot less self-centered, and more depressed people more likely to be self-centered. Protecting the self is a natural defense mechanism when one is sad. In large part, our baselines of happiness vary greatly due to genetics, and thus a person much more prone to depression really didn't chose their genetic make-up. A happy cheerful person saying to a depressed person 'I can't believe you could do such a selfish thing' would be akin to an athletic person saying to a less athletic person 'I can't believe you can't run fast'. Neither the depressed nor the less athletic chose their genetic dispositions.
I do think that making EQ and effective techniques for creating happier people should become more widely known, and so those that are less happy will have access to techniques that have been proven to make people happier. Some of the most effective techniques are things like 'learned optimism' and meditation.
The truth is suicide hurts those who are left behind more so than the person who is dead. My husband still struggles with his grandmothers suicide. He loved her dearly as she was his primary care giver. What haunts him to this day is the fact that he gave her the nail that she used to tie the rope around to hang herself. He lives with a lot of "What if's". I told him that she would've found another way to take her life. She seemed very intent on what she was doing. I am sure she didn't mean to make him feel bad or to suffer, I think it was just the reverse. She wanted him to have more food, more money, a better life since hers was almost over anyway. I think she needed to understand that her presence was more important. No one was starving to death, they had just enough. I get the idea that she was sacrificing for her family. Of course I never knew her, but from the kind stories that are told of her it's what I have come to believe.
Well just look at history, when The Sorrows of Young Werther (Goethe) was released there was a wave of suicide all over Europe, but honestly its out of question that all of those people had suicidal tendencies. It was a "trend" to commit suicide, they had a fear of death, yet they did it.
I always thought suicide was the most unfair to those who knew the person. It leaves them with so many unanswered questions and sometimes guilt. No matter how hopeless things seem, there are answers availible that are so much better then ending a life. If you can't talk to a friend or family member, try a trained stranger(suicide hotline/religious person/doctor/etc.).
Uncle Frank
:(
Even if one is bullyied or anything, I can't believe that life must feel so crap that you'd end it.
Suicide is a selfish and easy thing to do. Everyone makes mistakes in life... of course some bigger than the other but still. You have to learn from your mistakes, that's (IMO) what's life is about. Shame to your family or your company.. so you take your life? that's weak. How about finding a sulution to make it better or try to do something good.
I can understand some parts of suicide (can I????) for example when you don't see a way out... but seeing that their is more help in the world if you search for it I find it not an excuse to end your life. Kids whom are bullied for years, parents who doesn't support them and teachers who doesn't care... It's hard, but you have the internet nowadays where you can help on.
Suicide in Japan is something that the government should do more about, especially when you talk about ijime (bullying) and shame.
Thanks for posting the rules Mycernius.
I see your point, but I simply can't understand it, I mean, I understand that it is the case, i just can't seem to understand it with my subconsciousness... whoa, does this even make sense? :D
So basically, i try to imagine myself in such a case, but every single time when it comes to ending my life, there is this unbelievable fear, horror, that the effect of my deed can never be turned back.
Mycernius has explained it the way I understand it. A person who is mentally ill is thinking very differently from the way we do when we're healthy. There is a difference in being psychotic and neurotic, though I don't know any statistics about which one is more likely to commit suicide. And of course this doesn't take into account the "trendy" suicides or suicide for honor, etc.
Derfel, just count yourself very lucky if you can't understand it!
That's true, scorpian da black - there are suicides from brainwashing. And then killing yourself to save another person (maybe like pushing someone away from a moving car and then getting killed yourself) is completely different from being depressed and purposely killing yourself.
Good rules. Thank-you.
My take on suicide is this, it's permanent. You can't change your mind. I would never consider it. It's only for those who have lost all hope. You can never lose hope because who knows what tomorrow will bring. Hope is the one thing we can all count on. Now, my husbands grandmother (Japanese) killed herself at their home. She was sick and felt she was a burden. I think she did that to spare her children from taking care of her because at that time they were poor farmers. I think the other side of suicide in Japan is bringing shame on your family. People would rather kill themselves than have to live with the guilt or shame of what they have done. I guess here in the USA people can screw up and go on. Donald Trump declared bankruptcy, Bill Clinton had an affair, Martha Stewart guilty of insider trading etc...none of them killed themselves. Of course they are well known people, but it is the same for everyday people here as well. You make a mistake and you get on with life. Maybe that isn't possible in Japan?
The Bright Side - Support & resources for coping with depression, grief ::
Factors Which May Put a Loved One at Greater Suicide Risk. A list of factors which may put a loved one at greater suicide risk.
http://www.the-bright-side.org/site/thebrightside/section/325HOME |
suicide: Definition from Answers.com::
suicide ( ) n. The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself. Aristotle condemned suicide on political grounds, arguing that the allegiance
http://www.answers.com/topic/suicideHOME |
I don't know how valid this is across cultures but when I read this quote below recently in an article about suicides in Japan it was almost like everything about the people and their suicide proneness in modern life suddenly started to become a little more focused. These "depressive characteristics" are what the country prides itself on and can all be positive in one respect but taken to excess are obviously excessively dangerous. It is extremely possible to make a mistake or do something illegal and not do much more than apologize. It's the very thing corrupt government and corporate execs are in the news for night after night. On the other hand, for better or worse, those are also no doubt the less conscientious or sensitive and caring segments of the population...
"Experts say people who are highly conscientious and meticulous, who love to work and who are very sensitive to others' feelings are particularly vulnerable to depression, and thus are at higher risk of suicide."
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20071120i1.html
Well my view is: Eventually, fortunately or unfortunately no human being may decide, we will die, but since life here is good, even if it isn't good, it feels nice to live on an instinctive level. So basically we don't know what awaits us on the other side, thats why we shouldn't hurry and die. Besides, life is the greatest and only gift we truly, and solely possess. So why give it up? Dying to clean your name is honorable, but... you still die, now don't you? You cleaned your name, nice, if there's Heaven/Valhall/Nirvana/whateverland, you won, you got into a nice exclusive club of dead chaps. Well grats on that. But if there isn't? You died for an honorable cause, but you screwed up big time, there's no coming back. Even feeling something terrible is better than feeling nothing and sensing nothing. Deep in the crap there is hope, in nothingness there isn't a trace of it.
it kinda seems to be the easy way out, leaves other people to clean up gAprès moi, le délugeh
and i really don't see how it solves anything other than proving your guilt too...
Oh, I can really believe that life feels so crap. :( And if no one cares if you die, I understand the feeling 'what point is there in even living?' But I can't help seeing it as giving up... a cultural perspective, probably, but I'm pretty grateful for it. :p
In some, or perhaps even many cases, it may well be said that some aesthetic, conceptual difference between 'suicide' and 'self-sacrifice' may cause the two to be distinguished. In such cases, I feel I could of course agree with your sentiments.
Looking downwards, nevertheless, we could still reach a certain point where we could likely understand that both are equally a conscious (to whatever degree of mental capacity that may be made in) to allow death to take preference over life. A decision to act out a course which leads to dying.
If a large case study were to be done, I would not be surprized at all, actually, to see that most 'self-sacrifice' situations were those by which the 'greater objective' could be reached by those of the in-group of the one who chose to die for that 'cause.' Dying for the group, for the cause.
In the micro, it would be the same for the single individual's brain state. The individual dies for a 'cause,' for the 'group'--regardless of how unreal that may be externally, the internal state (and the brain has been shown to be capable of tricking itself) is that the act is for the good of the 'group.'
As Revanant also pointed out and as I have and will again in the future strongly argue with as much clearly and substantiated evidence as I can, there is no 'other side,' in the sense that the religionists of the past have always wanted us to believe. This is true in the sense that atomic particles do not contain consciousness in themselves.
Not THE other side but whatever waits for us when we die.
I believe in a plce of reward and I place of punishment.
I really hate to get off topic but it affects suicide.
I just wish I could reach out to those people that feel like all is lost and let them know that they are loved. Suicide,whilst is a cowardly thing is also a very sad thing and people should be respectful of death.
If your life is so bad you have to kill yourself then not only is a person being cowardly but selfish. People kill themselves over the stupidest things though. Like for instance: A girl killed herself here in America because some girl acted like a boy and harrassed her online!! Suicide is best performed in honor. Only the strong survive. Going through things makes us tougher and wiser. Why do people fail to realize that things eventually blow over--no matter what.
Oops. Sorry for the long post.
I see your point, but I simply can't understand it, I mean, I understand that it is the case, i just can't seem to understand it with my subconsciousness... whoa, does this even make sense? :D
So basically, i try to imagine myself in such a case, but every single time when it comes to ending my life, there is this unbelievable fear, horror, that the effect of my deed can never be turned back. And I may disappear completely, my existence, my consciousness, everything, I will close my eyes, and there will be a blackness... no not even blackness, nothingness. Like a deaf, mute, blind person whose nerves are dead due to leprosy or something. Its so dreadful, thats why I can't understand it. Nothing can be worse than that.
^ That's going to be my quotation of the week... :D :cool:
Hehe im honoured. :D
Although I believe that there is life after death, I don't believe suicide is a good idea. From what I've read about reincarnation and life after death, etc., there is a belief that if a person commits suicide they "forfeit" their chance to solve whatever problems they're having now, and will have to come back and do it all again in an attempt to solve it the next time. I'd much rather get as much solved as I can in this life and not have to relive things.
Some interesting points raised here. I do tend to mostly agree with you Derfel, and there are other points which I also tend to agree with made by others.
Yes, life is such a miracle, such a totally unimaginably large, evolving, waxing and waning amoeba like state of a substance! Life is wonderful !! I wouldn't, as some of you would know, say that we (as animals, as all animals and plants even too !! you know...) posses life, but rather that we are life.
Life is the the active force driving reproduction, which is, for the very most part, life--this spiting of cellular functions, cells themselves, growth, and so on. Without this active force, life is not. . . but that does not mean the individual. (the individual is a participant in life, the active force, not a possessor of it)
For that reason, I feel it is important to weigh each and every case of suidicide. There will be found times where it is actually a person's brain that tricks itself into going into suicide mode, without any 'willful' act by the person themselves...(this has to be looked at very carefully, since we are, by all means, simply and only, our brains and genetics)
I have know two people in America who had killed themselves. As far as I can see, based on what I know of them and their circumstances, their lives up to that point, I would say that bad choices along the way, lead to a situation wherein they took a wrong turn, a turn which led to a dead-end. After having reached that dead-end, their mental states were not capible of turning around. Disconnection was the only choice they could muster up. It was sad.
I have had a relative almost do so, too. That was the brain doing it in that case...little choice involved, for the basic part. The one person here in Japan that I knew of who comitted suicide was about my age, the father of a child who was in my eldest son's class from elementary school up. It was hush-hush (which I think is really bad...bring it out in the open, be honest about it, and that may help) so I don't really know, but it seems he chose that to save his family financial burden...maybe like Goldiegirl's grandmother-in-law.
We must keep in mind, however, that at times, in the mind of the suicide-state-of-minded, there is already no longer the 'I'--or,as the word for the self is in Greek, ego.
suicide is viewed in a different way in every society.
in Abrahamic religions suicide is a great sin...it is no different than any other murder...it is a murder against one's own self...and the one who commits suicide is cursed to Hell.
but there is a difference between suicide and self sacrifice which is a great matter in those religions as in the story of Abraham and Isac ( in the old and new testament ) Abraham and Ismael ( in the Quran )...
so we find warriors willing to take their own life in battle to kill as many enemies as possible...and that will be considered martyrdom as glorious.
in Japan suicide is a matter of honor some times, mainly in old days, when a dishonored samurai will kill him self in a ceremony called harakiri or sebuku...or when a kamikaze will self sacrifice him self for the glory of the empire...or when some body messes up in the Yakuza ( movies :P )...
but it is no different from the western suicide in many cases where a man kills him self out of desperation...a broken family, a business man who lost his company ...etc
There's a location not too far from where I live, on the way up to Nagano city that's a bit interesting in one way, strangely grotesque in another. The name of that small area up back in the hills is 'Obasate'--which means, basically and directly, 'grandmother dump.'
Yes, there were places, and that custom, in some areas of Japan--I recall one movie having a scene where the then grandson was asked to carry the grandmother to such a location and leave her...he really hesitated on actually leaving her there...even though she had been insisting...and tried to find every excuse not too.
Even in Japan today, I'm sure 99% of the people would find such a custom crazy...yet from the minds of those who had practiced such...it would have been normal. This factor is surely what makes it hard to understand the concept of suicide here in Japan.
... would the other side be better?"
As Revanant also pointed out and as I have and will again in the future strongly argue with as much clearly and substantiated evidence as I can, there is no 'other side,' in the sense that the religionists of the past have always wanted us to believe. This is true in the sense that atomic particles do not contain consciousness in themselves.
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