The Soulless Asian; Asian versus Western

Published by: mike 2009-01-07

The Soulless Asian; Asian versus Western

I lived Asia two years (1980-1981)

I find the following about Asia (Japan, China, and Korea)

- -> Hard working

- -> Money is everything

- -> Money is first, pollution of my neighborhood, who cares, if not in my yard

- -> Not as "artsy" and deep thinkers as Westerners (rarely procude a "Kurt Vonnegut" or "Hunter S. Thompson")

- -> Believe order is more important than pseudo-controlled chaos (good for dealing with crime, bad for storming ideas in a meeting)

- -> Women exist mostly for pleasure (I don't know how Asian Men raise daughters)

- -> Their economy are the worlds worst polluters
(If Asians ran the world, the last tree and last fish in the ocean would be gone by 2040).

- -> Many Chinese come of cold, like their lives are burnt-out robots, going through the motions (Americans love to say good morning, and talk a bit. and tell stories, or a joke or two).

p.s: Their are exceptions to every rule.

Correct .... China contributes 16 percent of the world total of carbon dioxide emissions, the second-highest after the *US at 22% .Double the percentage or more for US if we include American-invested manufacturing facilities over there.
* Sources : World Bank & ONS

This is changing though;

"China's emissions are just one-sixth of America's per capita, but the population is so huge that this year the country is due to become the world's biggest polluter";

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6610653.stm

Even polution aside, i would say that China treats its environment worse than what the americans treat theirs in certain respects, unfortunately China doesn't care much for its people let alone its wildlife. Its hard to expect China to treat its environment and its wildlife well when it doesn't even treat its people well, it has a pretty appalling human rights record etc.

I lived Asia two years (1980-1981)

I've been hearing fascinating stories from friends who lived/worked here from the 70's onwards, and the changes are amazing.

In particular:
"Hard working" = Long working. People will be at the office simply to be at the office. Last guy to leave is the "hardest" worker, even if he did sleep in the storage room for 10 hours of that 14hr day.

"Money is everything" - During the 80's and 90's the economy sky rocketed thanks to a false bubble economy. Money was easy to come by, and people spent like there was no tomorrow.

"Money is first, pollution of my neighborhood, who cares, if not in my yard" - Two words; Dioxin, Minamata.

"Not as "artsy" and deep thinkers as Westerners" - Hard to talk about as "art" in the East is different to the West, and both have their real disasters... Remember that there have been many Asian philosophers and deep thinkers, and Asian art is very different to Western art. Still, Japan had what I can only call a "cultural disaster" after WWII where anything "old" was considered to be dirty, substandard, and many beautiful homes, customs and practices were discarded for new, soulless, sterile objects, designs and ways. One look at Kyoto will tell you all you need to know.

"Believe order is more important than pseudo-controlled chaos (good for dealing with crime, bad for storming ideas in a meeting)" - Again, this is a recent thing. Anyone coming from Edo-era Japan would have been shocked and appalled by the people of modern Japan IMO. Crime is not what made Japan successful and adopt an extremely strict order to anything, it was huge advances in industry and in particular manufacturing, which kickstarted the economy after the war, which seeped into every facet of life.

"Women exist mostly for pleasure (I don't know how Asian Men raise daughters)" - Depends on the person, I've seen the best and worst you can come to expect from a human being while here, but thats no different than anywhere.

"Their economy are the worlds worst polluters" - You cheated, thats using the same thing twice!

Lived and worked; Singapore and Hong-Kong. Hong-Kong as much as Singapore. Studied Bhasa-Malaysia to do business with Malaysian companies. Many vacation trips to; Malaysia and Thailand.

My opionon on "Asians just pollute" is just very strong. So long as the pollution is not in their yard. It was rampant wherever I went in Asia. It was a culture attitude, money first, and who cares about messing up your city.

I met a few Koreans and Japanese. Nothing changed my mind about this.

Time frame was 1980-1981

That was a nice bit of information, and I appreciate the trouble you went to in arranging it and putting it all out here. One question, though (and this has been troubling me for a while, now) why 'anyhoo' instead of 'anyhow?' Is it a Livepool thing, such as booket for bucket?

I'm really sorry that from your 2 years in those countries, you were only able to take away those sentiments. Additionally, China, Korea and Japan have changed since 1980/81. All of those things you outline can be said of the U.S. if not more.

As for "artsy" and deep thinkers, a little study into Asian art and literature will help you to see that there's plenty there to keep an interested mind engaged.

As for "Believe order is more important than pseudo-controlled chaos," you'll have to elaborate on that because wouldn't any working society value order more than chaos--pseudo-controlled or not? I still don't understand what you mean by "pseudo-controlled." Wouldn't it simply be chaos if it's not really controlled?

Lived and worked; Singapore and Hong-Kong. Hong-Kong as much as Singapore. Studied Bhasa-Malaysia to do business with Malaysian companies. Many vacation trips to; Malaysia and Thailand.
My opionon on "Asians just pollute" is just very strong. So long as the pollution is not in their yard. It was rampant wherever I went in Asia. It was a culture attitude, money first, and who cares about messing up your city.
I met a few Koreans and Japanese. Nothing changed my mind about this.
Time frame was 1980-1981
are you really expecting to carry on an intelligent conversation from this or are you simply looking to seek justification for your views? Either way, i'm finished with this thread.

Does Japan's air look green,pathetic :?

Well, Iron Maiden's Paschendale is a great song, i shall quite from it:
"Cruelty has a human heart
Every man does play his part
Terror of the men we kill
The human heart is hungry still"

Now, this describes everything people do in a critical situation, be they europeans, americans, africans, asians, australians, whateverians.
Its a very human reaction, an instinct i dare say.

" Cutting air pollution will start preventing illness almost straight away, according to a study which looked at death rates in Hong Kong.

In 1990, the then UK colony introduced regulations to reduce sulphur emissions from cars.

Researchers from the Universities of London and Hong Kong tried to gauge the impact of this"

" Their research, published in The Lancet medical journal this week, found that, on average, every resident of Hong Kong gained weeks of extra life expectancy for every year they breathed the cleaner air.

Women gained just over 20 days on average per year - and men 41 days."

"Deaths from respiratory disease fell by 5% each year from the introduction of the measure, and heart disease by 2% each year.

WHERE TO MICROFINANCE?::
The result is a profitable but soulless endeavor. of nine Western African MFIs (Webster, 1995) and five South Asian MFIs (Bennett
http://www.gdrc.org/icm/where-to-mf.htmlHOME

Anthony Hedley, a professor of community medicine at the University of Hong Kong, said: "Pollution from sulphur-rich fuels has an effect on death rates, especially respiratory and cardiovascular deaths"

"A report in the South China Morning Post suggested that particulate pollution sometimes reached more than four times US safety limits.

A previous study estimated that annual deaths as a result of respiratory or cardiovascular illness topped 6,000."

Full story;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2502283.stm

"Air pollution causes the blood vessels to narrow - even in healthy people, scientists have shown for the first time.

The finding may explain why air pollution appears to increase the rate of heart attacks and other cardiovascular problems among people with heart and blood vessel disease.

I have opened my eyes and now I see.::
When the western countries (Russia, Germany, and France) saw that Japan had The natives consider the Europeans as soulless creatures that possessed
http://www.eyesopened.orgHOME

Two Articles About Reverential Ecology::
impose its ideals of human rights on us Asians with our Asian values. trying to assume that there is something Asian which is superior to the Western.
http://www.reverentialecology.org/kyoto_interview.htmHOME

In the study at the University of Toronto, 25 healthy people inhaled elevated concentrations of fine particles plus ozone for two hours.

After exposure, volunteers' blood vessels constricted between 2% and 4% on average.

However, their vessels did not constrict when they were exposed to ozone-free and particle-free air";

Full story;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1866673.stm

"A huge scientific study has produced the clearest evidence yet that long-term exposure to air pollution causes lung cancer.

Breathing in small particles of soot and dust over many years also significantly increases the risk of dying from heart disease, said the researchers.

The study, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, involved hundreds of thousands of people in cities across the US - and looked at their health over two decades"

"The researchers found that the death rate from lung cancer increased by 8% for every increase of 10mcg of fine particulate matter per cubic metre.

There was also an increase in heart disease corresponding to the rise in levels of these key particles."

"In 1998, an influential government committee on the effects of air pollution suggested that 10,000 people a year might be dying as a result of particulate pollution.

In addition to lung cancers and heart disease, it has been linked to asthma, and other lung and circulatory diseases.

Roger Higman, a transport campaigner at Friends of the Earth UK, said that the sheer scale of the US research should point the way to similar UK studies.

"It's yet further evidence that pollution from cars and lorries shortens people's lives - and exposes the government's failure to tackle this problem.";

Full story;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1853675.stm

" Children playing outdoor team sports in areas of high ozone concentration could be at increased risk of developing asthma.

Research suggests that they are three times more likely to develop the condition than children who do not take part in sporting activities.

Asthma is the most common chronic disease of childhood and it is on the increase in developed countries. However, scientists do not know why.

The new study suggests that pollution, which has long been suspected as a culprit, does indeed play a role.";

Full story;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1792039.stm

Anyhoo, there are dozens of articles on the bbc on stuff like this, so i won't post them all here. But the effects of air polution are far reaching, causing people heart disease, lung cancer, ashma and much more.

People have known since the victorian times that something was wrong with the air in places like London, and many people suffering from breathing problems were sent to live in the countryside for a while to help improve their health. But even though we have seemed to realise stuff like this, i think many people have forgotten about stuff like this or have underestimated it in this day and age, which is worrying when you read statistics like this;

"According to the United Nations, the planet's population is currently split almost right down the middle: 3.2 billion in the city, 3.2 billion in the countryside. But by the start of 2007, the balance will have tipped decisively away from the fields and towards the skyscrapers."

At least in England, the vast majority of people live in urban area's like towns and cities, i saw on tv on this program where they said something like apparently 99% of the population now lives in urban area's like cities and towns etc.

-
All I read is that Communist China is super-polluted. I had two people who visited China, said they do not want to go back. It was just too much pollution and filthy.

These articles by the "liberal" New York Times. It reinforces what I mentioned.

As China Roars, Pollution Reaches Deadly Extremes
By JOSEPH KAHN and JIM YARDLEY
Published: August 26, 2007
The speed of China’s rise as an economic power is unprecedented, as is the scale of its problems.

->http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/world/asia/26china.html

Beneath Booming Cities, China’s Future Is Drying Up
By JIM YARDLEY
Published: September 28, 2007
Groundwater levels are dropping around China, as development taps a finite water supply.

-> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/28/world/asia/28water.html

In China, a Lake’s Champion Imperils Himself
By JOSEPH KAHN
Published: October 14, 2007
When Lake Tai succumbed to floods of man-made waste this year, the man who tried to save it was in jail.

-> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/world/asia/14china.html

.

If that's your experience, I feel sorry for you.

p.s: Their are exceptions to every rule.There sure are, but I wouldn't call what you've listed here as rules.

Well its sad, but natural, if the situation would have been vice versa, western culture would have adopted Japanese elements, if not Japanese art wholly. Its pretty much similar to the USSR's jeans and generally west mania. But i kinda have a questions, how does all this western influence affect the modern Japanese culture? I mean, when you look at what happened with the USSR you'd expect Japan to restore its balance quickly, but since im reading the opposite, it probably is otherwise... is this the case? If it is why do you think it is?

I dunno much about the story/history on the USSR thing, but i think the main reasons why japan stayed so westernised after the war was simply because art became involved with the war spirit and politics of japan and the three of these things became so closely intertwined with each other and the culture of the japanese in general, that there was no turning back even after the war- i think the way stuff like western art effected japan, didn't just affect the fashions and trends at the time, it affected the way of thinking of the japanese people themselves.

I think if Japan had won the war, things could have turned out very different for its art and culture, since winning the war would have boosted japans ego and spirit beyond immeasureable bounds, and this japanese spirit would have no longer needed the western ideals it held to be looked up to anymore, and so a new re-inforced bold and self-assured japanese culture would have risen out of its old pre-war more insecure shell.

I think losing the war though for japan irreverseably forced japanese people to continue adopting more and more western culture though- i don't think this just came about with the literal permanent landing of westerners like american troops on japanese soil which the japanese were forced to accept, but i think the whole war itself put an imense amount of strain on the general japanese people and probably made them question many of their japanese born and bred ideals which were influencing and motivating their actions in war.

In the end they lost the war, and i think with this started the loss of many aspects of their culture began (and in many ways this still continues to this day).
Some of the old culture like the old styles of art are now gradually being accepted back into the circles of praise, and old dead artists like Utamaro are now being praised more than ever now in recent times, but this isn't the case for a lot of aspects of the old culture, which i am afraid some of which will be irreverseably replaced with western aspects of culture.

I think for Japan, losing the war made it very humble (or at least a lot more humble than it used to be, losing the war slashed at the heart of japans pride), and it is true that the numerous Americans at least wanted to mold a newer and more westernised society out of this conquered and now subdued oriental foe.

I've been hearing fascinating stories from friends who lived/worked here from the 70's onwards, and the changes are amazing.

Of course I realize, things have changed. Just my impressioms from being their 1980-1981. Have never been back.

My opinion: If Asia could solve or control several issues, it will be the "center of the universe" very soon. Problems facing Asia;
-> Political Corruption, to having Old-Style Communist Dictatorships
-> China versus Taiwan
-> North-Korea (slowly getting much better)
-> Pollution
-> World War II guilt, and the political impacts

I was their 22-23 months. It was work and work. I lived and worked; Signapore and Hong-Kong. On 3 and 4 days weekends, mostly took time to go to Malaysia and Thailand, with friends from work

I studied formally Bhasa Malaysian. Many of my peers in the classes did better than me. I had dealings with Malaysian companies.

I lived and worked in an Asian culture (1980-1981). In Singapore, English was spoken most of the time in the company. In Hong-Kong much less English spoken in the companies offices.

Number one is the USA, followed by China, Japan, Germany.The US has been the number one polluter in the world for years, including the time you where in Asia (Which I gather you mean the Far East, Asia is a rather large continent)

Correct .... China contributes 16 percent of the world total of carbon dioxide emissions, the second-highest after the *US at 22% .Double the percentage or more for US if we include American-invested manufacturing facilities over there.

* Sources : World Bank & ONS

I lived Asia two years (1980-1981)
What all of it, including Arabia, India, Israel? I believe they are all Asians as well.

I find the following about Asia (Japan, China, and Korea)
So by living in these three countries you have decided that the list you came up with is typical of all Asians? That's a bit like living in Ireland and the UK and saying all Europeans drink tea. Hardly a representative sample of Asia, 3 countries.

Not as "artsy" and deep thinkers as Westerners (rarely procude a "Kurt Vonnegut" or "Hunter S. Thompson")
By whose standards, yours? Three major world religions came from "thinkers", Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism. Sun Tzu produced a book, The Art of War, that is still studied by modern day military. Ever thought that the overwelming commercialism from the west keeps Asian authors and artists in their own countries and not being able to expand as easily into the west as the west does so into Asian.

Women exist mostly for pleasure
Hmm, an attitude I have often seen and heard in the west, especially by those who want to keep women in their place. Religious groups mainly.

Their economy are the worlds worst polluters
(If Asians ran the world, the last tree and last fish in the ocean would be gone by 2040).
Number one is the USA, followed by China, Japan, Germany and India.
The US has been the number one polluter in the world for years, including the time you where in Asia (Which I gather you mean the Far East, Asia is a rather large continent)
It will soon be passed by China, but it is still up there.
Source (http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/gmaps/greenhouse-emitters/))
You will also notice that only three of them are Asian countries. I suggest you get your facts right before posting.

I think if the "Americans" wanted to make a new America, we would be living there and not the Japanese....for example, Native Americans. Personally, I think Japan was/is a very smart nation overall and would have progressed to a more western syle regardless of the outcome of the war. To me it's lame to ever think they could've won, they were just too small and had very limited resources. Japan is still very Japanese. I know that I am not in my country immediately. Even companies that are American that are in Japan are not run like their American counterparts. McD's is not the same as it is here. It's different...it's Japanese. I am not welcomed when I enter or leave...

Hm, but when you compare Japan to how it is now or even just how it was soon after the war and what it was like before it went to war, the changes that happened in that short period of time to its culture are astounding though.
I think there was always a good chance back at the start that Japan could have won the war, but i think by the time the americans were getting ready to nuke Japan, i think Japan was bound to lose the war soon either way (i think the americans knew this, which is why i think the americans viewed the nuke bombs as more as experiments than as a desperate act to stop the war- i think the americans knew full well by then that they were going to win the war).

The Americans didn't want to make a new America in Japan, they wanted to westernise Japan as a country on the whole though, to help take advantage of its resources after the war- westernising a country is different from building a new america or whatever on it, Japan is in a very good position (literally) for many things. The American's changed a great deal about the way Japan worked, for example from just small things like introducing milk into childrens school meals, to more large cultural changes like making prostitution and cannabis illegal etc.

Personally, I think Japan was/is a very smart nation overall and would have progressed to a more western syle regardless of the outcome of the war.

I'm not sure about that...Its true Japan is a very smart country, but when you look at what was going on in the meiji period with just the general culture back then, it was quite crazy really- on the one hand, they were worshipping so many aspects of western culture like western style art, its miltary and many aspects of its politics etc. But on the other hand, women who wore western style clothes were often looked down upon and viewed as "loose women", good women were still expected to fullfill the japanese societies expectations, they wore kimono while the men wore western style suits, the free women were pretty much viewed as the baby making machines they had always been for a long time in japanese society. They were encouraged to express their individuality, but then on the other hand they were still living in a very supressed sexist society etc. They wore western style art on their kimono, but their homes were decorated with japanese style art like Imari ware bowls to eat out of etc.

Basically, i think Japan was obsessing with certain chosen ideals of both western culture and systems and japanese cultures and systems, but at the same time it was rejecting many aspects of both cultures. The meiji times were times of great change in many respects in Japanese society.

I think though that japans adoption of so many aspects of western style culture was because they admired us because they viewed us as being more technologically and militarily advanced than then for quite a while, but if Japan had one the war against its posible that the Japanese would have stopped looking up to our technology and stuff because at the end of the day it didn't win the war against the Japanese as a whole etc.

Women exist mostly for pleasure

How many soaplands did you say you visited?
How many mothers and working mothers did you interview or meet in your 2 skimpy years?

BTW, 2 years divided by 3 countries = 8 months per country average time spent. Pretty short time to judge entire countries.

I've heard those same things about China. And even though the U.S. is statistically the biggest polluter, I don't see pollution in the air here (I also don't live in a big city). I had friends who lived in Germany for a while, and they said it was much more polluted there than it is here.

That may or may not be true, but that doesn't of course nesarsarily mean that america is becomming less poluted, it could just be that china is becomming more poluted than america so america's levels of polution look better when compared to china.

My fiance used to live in America for quite a few years a long time before we met, he worked mostly on video games and during the years he lived in america he built up quite a photo album of his travels in america.
One thing that did stand out to me as i looked through his photo's of america was just the morning smog that rose everyday in so many of the cites he stayed at in america during his travels there. I've seen worse polution on tv programs of other countries like the smog in Beijing, however i have to admit that the smog in the some of the photo's my fiance took while living america was still pretty bad.
I'd hate to live in such cities with such bad air polution, it would drive me nuts, but then again i don't particularly enjoy city life that much in general (there is of course no doubt that there are many conviniences to living in a city), i just end up missing all the little things like having lots of tree's to look at as i walk along and having my own personal space, being able to walk in an empty street at 12 a clock at night and smelling the fresh clean air every morning and freshly cut grass in the summer afternoons etc etc.

WTF
http://www.japantoday.com/forum/tm.asp?m=969449&mpage=1&key=��
This thread reminds me too much of that one Southpark episode.

xDDDD me too!

anyway, what makes you think that western ppl are "better" than Asian?

may I remember you WW I and II, inquisition, colonization, genocides, etc... all begun by western countries!!

oh by the way, USA is one of the countries who most contaminates in the world!

WTF
http://www.japantoday.com/forum/tm.asp?m=969449&mpage=1&key=󬬭
This thread reminds me too much of that one Southpark episode.

Also, does Japan really pollute that much? I know a dolphin when extinct recently in China. And due to pollution. Which is pathetic.

But Japan? Maybe I'm wrong, but they seem pretty green to me.

So when you say Asian, perhaps you should just say CHINA? Seems like that is your area of interest, right or wrong. I certainly will not defend China, they are a very polluted country. I was even reading about "cancer" towns there. Many people are dieing of cancer because of the polluted water that runs red/brown, and is poisoned from the coal mining.

Just random ramblings

i haven`t lived in Asia for 2 years, but stayed in US for a year as exchange
student, visited Jordan in 2005 and small part of south-east asia, some Europe, due to the country of my origin is "asia-ape" and therefore dare to draw few conclusions triggered by the initial post of this thread.

First of all, i am really surprised to what a narrow definition of the soul can
be brougt out of opening statments. Quite bold to proclaim someone "soulless"
with such few arguments (Socrates of the west, probably, would`ve asked for more logical and grounded facts, and Lao of the east would probably just chuckled)

as far as i can say
-> there are hard- and lousy-workers on either side of the world (and it is
often a matter of upbringing)

-> money is everything... just wonder why at the end of XIX - beginning of the XX centuries western labour unions were fighting for greater wages? And nowdays western people tend to look for a job what would give not only emotional merits but financial benefits as well. At the same time in the arab world you will often hear that "reputation is more important than money"

-> pollution... anyone here counted how many western manufacturing facilities were relocated to the third world countries because labour there was much cheaper and "ecological expenses" were nothing compare to those in US and Europe? Very interesting what will happen to the global economy if eastern countries will introduce and execute the same laws concerning ecological issues (as used in Europe or USA)?

-> as for deep thinkers here already was a good advise to study heritage of the east - its literature and arts

-> order and chaos... i don`t know much, but according to the core of eastern philosophy order and chaos are complimentary, asian people (mostly SEA region) can be more pedantic but it doesn`t mean that they strive for order more than westerners. For example, there is a stereotype in my country that we, russians, are more chaotic than europeans (especially, germans). But this is just national cliche, how correct is it only experience can show

-> many women in the world (both east and west) would say that men treat them as second-class people,perhaps, this feelings gave birth to "ugly" side of feminism

:D now it is time for home task reading of Kipling`s poem about west and east

=============================
and just few irritating facts form my own experience

-> littering (aside from air, light, noise pollution). Great problem of my own
country. Haven`t seen much in Thailand or Kuala Lumpur, in Jordan noticed a lot of old tires and plastic bags alongside the road. Countries what enforce a
surchage for littering suffer less from this problem

-> acquisitiveness. Became sort of sport to swindle a tourist, especially taxis
and various markets. Spotted in some european countries, Russia, Egypt and Turkey, tourist areas in SEA (although never encountered in Cambodia). Regulated prices exclude such possibility, but it certainly doesn`t mean that fare is always fare

-> consuming culture. Like it or not but the leader is still West, though it
turns into a problem in eastern region also. Mostly due to the economical growth and aggresive propaganda of western style of living (which (propagnda) excludes real western values). And to my not so humble opinion this is one of the major keys to the pollution, money-is-first thing, bubble economies and such.

-> religiosity. All guilty %)))
Had enougth of weekly church visits in US,
think that Russian Orthodox Church stuck its head into too many secular areas,
consider that it is too much of Buddha in Asia,
everyone heard about fanatical islamists,
shall leave the judgement of Vatican to catholics...
Don`t recall who of arabs said "Growing number of mosques is a sign of upcoming doomsday". Today we face an empty facade, true reverence of divine became a rare thing (or if not rare, then absolutely unheard)

===========================

it is hard to accept the cultural differences, it is extremely difficult to
understand these differences, but is very easy to jump to the conclusions and
judgement. We rare make efforts to understand and deemed to face the consequences. For awhile we have a place to escape and live in comfortable and comprehensible environment... but for how long?

I've seen worse polution on tv programs of other countries like the smog in Beijing, however i have to admit that the smog in the some of the photo's my fiance took while living america was still pretty bad.

America's Los Angeles area is world's most polluted by automobiles & Gobi Desert's sandstorms sweep across northern China including Beijing in recent years attributed to the region's environmental catastrophy.

"Not as "artsy" and deep thinkers as Westerners" - Hard to talk about as "art" in the East is different to the West, and both have their real disasters... Remember that there have been many Asian philosophers and deep thinkers, and Asian art is very different to Western art. Still, Japan had what I can only call a "cultural disaster" after WWII where anything "old" was considered to be dirty, substandard, and many beautiful homes, customs and practices were discarded for new, soulless, sterile objects, designs and ways. One look at Kyoto will tell you all you need to know.

Hmm i think Japan's rejection of its native styles of art back then started a lot earlier than its involvement in or after the WW2 years. I think Japan started to become obsessed with western styles of art during the early meiji period as soon as Japan opened its doors to the west, during this time the japanese started to make their first tentative steps towards imitating western styles of art.

Even before the meiji period, there were small quantities of western art secretely circulating around japan during the Edo period, i have a book on the history of shunga called "Japanese Erotic Fantasies, Sexual imagery of the Edo period" (an interesting book BTW, has many interesting points to make on how sex affected japanese society and how it affected the art that society produced etc).
In the books many pictures and writings on shunga, it shows one very unique peice of Edo shunga by a japanese artist- the picture shows a western couple making love, the shunga print is not only unique for its content but also for the japanese artists attempts at shading (a technique borrowed from the west), he seems to have a hard time coming to grips with the concept of shading but does it to the best of his abilities non the less. The annomynous shunga print is thought to have been based on the later 18th centuary drawings or imitations of Il Modo by Giulio Romano (1499-1546)- it is hard though to speculate on the amount of western material like this circulating in Japan at this point in the Edo period.

None the less though, i would say that definately by the Taisho period western arts influence on kimono at least is well in full swing, you often see many old vintage kimono from the taisho period often referred to as "taisho-roman" kimono, the influence of western art on these kimono's designs is obvious on many, for example here is one example of what i am talking about;

http://www.ichiroya.com/item/list2.php?number=87499

The artist trys to use more shading in the decoration of the kimono's design while trying to copying the more "realistic" western style of painting flowers, in a lot of taisho kimono you also see lot of things like roses appearing as motifs on kimono, with roses of course being prized back in the west, the flowers of royalty.

If you read about the interesting but sad story of the famous japanese artist Utamaro, you will find out that at the date of his death the japanese were already rejecting their "inferior" styles of native art, poor Utamaro's grave was completely neglected for decades upon decades and his achievements were never really given the real credit he deserved for a long time after his death because there was no one willing to give him any credit at that time as the japanese carried on obsessing about how "superior" and amazing western style art was, they neglected their own artists, art and really culture too for too long...
It was not until the japanese really started to realise that we loved their styles of art, that they started to give more credit to their own styles of art.

McDonald's is McDonald's wherever you are, they might serve you in a different manner, nonetheless your life will be shortened by the same amount if you eat there :D
Umm yes, well its probably impossible to completely root out everything Japanese, even if you make efforts, but still, its rather easy to destroy whole aspects of a culture even without doing much, just by being in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Well hopefully most of those aspects will survive, one way or another.

Yes, I know that in big cities (like Los Angeles and New York) do have smog. I also wouldn't want to live in a big city because of that and the noise levels, space problems, etc.
I've heard that the American government owes money to China. I think most of us are just holding our breath now until the next presidential election, which hopefully will bring much-needed changes.

With the air polution problem, this article on smog related deaths may be of interest to you guys (although it focuses on england, i think it is relevant to places like america too);

"Summer smog causes the deaths of more than 3,000 people each year, the Liberal Democrats have warned."

"The photochemical reactions involving these "precursors", as they are known, will create harmful ozone which can affect people's airways.

Even normally fit and health people may experience a shortness of breath, some coughing, chest tightness, or just irritation of the nose and throat.

Summer smog can also contain high levels of breathable dust, often referred to as particulate matter";

Full story;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5160278.stm

"People are being warned of the possible health risks after officials issued a smog warning for many parts of England."

"It said people sensitive to air pollution, such as those with heart and lung conditions, should heed the alert.

Ben Bradshaw, minister for local environmental quality, said people should "take sensible precautions, such as avoiding exertion outdoors on hot afternoons" to protect their health"

"People who are particularly sensitive to air pollution may begin to notice an effect on their breathing in the coming days.

Asthma sufferers are not necessarily more sensitive but, if affected, are advised to use their inhaler."

"During the 2003 heatwave, it was estimated... that up to 800 premature deaths may have occurred as a result of the poor air quality.";

Full story;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4120582.stm

" Officials believe that as many as 12,000 people may have died in the great London smog of 1952.

Many of those killed were elderly people or those who were already weak or ill.

According to medical staff who treated patients at the time, few people realised the extent of the impact"

"The interesting thing is that no one realised at the time that the no of deaths were increasing," he told the BBC.

"There weren't bodies lying around in the street and no one really noticed that more people were dying."

""We are better off but not as much better off as we might have thought. Fifty years on the great smogs are gone but invisible pollutants are still taking a major toll on health.

"Some 20,000 in England alone suffer shortened lives each year."

He says vehicle emissions are the main culprits and believes the government should be doing more to tackle the problem";

Full Story;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2545747.stm

Pretty worrying stuff, huh? I'm glad i don't live in London at the very least :cool: .

But there is no doubt that all this air polution is destroying the health of our people, even if not everyone believe's in global warming, we should still try to cut down on levels of air polution for the health of our people at the very least.
People have a choice whether to smoke tobacco or not, if they die from it then thats just the risk they bargained to take when they took up smoking, but people who die from air polution have no choice whatsoever in the matter, everyone knows now days tobacco can give you lung cancer, but i wonder how many people realise the health problems of smog?
I don't really have anything against those that smoke, i am a light smoker myself, i know the risks of my habit to my health, but i think it is very unfair that people can die simply for living in their home city and many of these people are probably completely oblivious to the health impacts their choice of area to live in is having on their health. How many people's grandparents have died before their time because of smog, how many people's premature babies have died when they wouldn't of because of smog, how many people with illnesses have died because of smog when they could have otherwise lived and lead fullfilling happy lives etc?

IMHO, the government needs to do far more on making people aware how bad air polution in cities is for our health, so at least people can make a more informed choice on whether they want to live in a city with smog or not etc. From what i have seen, smog in london is not as bad as the smog in places like LA, i wonder how high the death and illness toll is for those living in LA due to the smog levels there? It is probably a lot higher toll.

More articles on air polution, this one is on children living in the US;

"Atmospheric pollution discriminates between the sexes, a study has found.

It examined the effects of smog on the respiratory systems of boys and girls, and found that while polluting gases affected boys most, particle pollution affected girls.

Scientists have no explanation as to why this might be."

"The finding is the latest surprise to emerge from a comprehensive look at the health effects of air pollution on US children."

"Children are particularly vulnerable to the effect of pollution"

"The study also showed both sexes suffered from pollution-related ill health.

Children in the most polluted communities covered by the research had lung growth about 5% lower than normal.

Coughing and wheezing among asthmatics was found to be more severe in areas with higher levels of nitrogen oxide and particle pollution";

Full story;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/273295.stm

Well, i don't mean it in a racist way or anything, but with its economical growth China will soon be the centre of the world.
As for North Korea, well we kinda live in an era where external intervention in this case is impossible i believe, even though its painful, we can't do a thing about it.
Pollution? I don't know much about the pollution caused by Asian countries, so i better not comment on this.
Communist dictatorships? It will work out one way or another.

China is certainly very powerful but it is not the most economically stable of countries, its strength is in its raw numbers of people power, rather than in its technology, weapons, strength or currency etc or anything like that. If it sorted out its corrupt government and did more to stablise the growth of its population and ecomony etc, it would certainly become a terribly imense super power, but as it currently stands it is not imune from weakness even though it has many strengths.
Its always posible (and not that unlikely at the moment in my honest opinion) that something could happen to its economy with the way its currently going like what happened to japan in the 1990's;

"From the 1960s to the 1980s, overall real economic growth has been called a "miracle": a 10% average in the 1960s, a 5% average in the 1970s and a 4% average in the 1980s.[52] Growth slowed markedly in the 1990s, largely because of the after-effects of over-investment during the late 1980s and domestic policies intended to wring speculative excesses from the stock and real estate markets. Government efforts to revive economic growth met with little success and were further hampered in 2000 to 2001 by the deceleration of the global economy.[46] However, the economy showed strong signs of recovery after 2005. GDP growth for that year was 2.8%, with an annualized fourth quarter expansion of 5.5%, surpassing the growth rates of the US and European Union during the same period.";

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan#Economy

Who knows what is going to happen though? Either way though, i think places like America should watch what happens with China very carefully with a very stern eye. Its not exactly like China is run in a very morally correct way in many aspects of its goverment and more, i wouldn't expect China to be loyal towards America if there was no financial gain involved for China etc.
Anyhoo...Either way though i'm probably getting way over my head here with this stuff. Don't get me wrong, there are many aspects about China's culture which i like or interest me a great deal, but i just don't trust it that much. I think its success needs to be kept in check.

As to north korea, well thats a completely different cup of tea all together. At the end of the day, there are many countries whose people suffer a great deal like those living in north korea, but our governments will properly never intervene with what goes on in such countries to any great extent unless either 1. N korea poses some sort of serious threat to the west and refuses to back down, or 2. There is a large financial gain or something similar to reward us for delving into its many troubles.
I feel very sorry and sympathise greatly for those that live in N korea and have to suffer because of its highly corrupt disfunctional almost nazi like etc government, but then again there's so many problems in the world, whatcha gonna do at the end of the day? We simply don't have the power or right to sort out all of the worlds problems.
The only real way to help korea's people in the long term would be to topple its current government, but this would probably mean going to war with N korea, and even though korean people suffer in N korea because of their own country, they often don't realise this- chances are that if we went to war with N korea, its people would just suicidally throw themselves at us one after another until they couldn't physically fight as a country anymore against us. The casualities for the N koreans would be imense. And even if we won such a war, what sort of government would be put in place of its current leaders? Democracey in Iraq has failed and is unlikely to ever succeed with the way things currently are, there's no reason why it would work any better in N korea. A dictatorship would probably work with more success, but then again thats a very different and more complicated and difficult system to put into place and control etc.

At the end of the day, there just aren't any easy answers/solutions for these things. We send aid to N korea, but then when it arrives the governments propaganda just makes its people believe that the aid we send them is actually from their government and that us from the west are the real enemies of their country and the cause of all of their problems. The aid often ends up on the black markets or generally filling the pockets of corrupt government officials etc, and rarely does it ever help in any real way the people that it was originally intended to help- often, in certain respects it just makes things worse in the long term. You could almost say, whats the point in saving these people when they don't realise that we are trying to save them and that the longer they believe we're the enemies the less likely their situation is ever going to improve etc?
And this is just scratching at the surface of the countries problems, this is not even taking into consideration countries like America's problems etc.

Although i understand what this topic is about, i just can't seem to grasp its purpose, TuskCracker, you list so many things, which do you want to discuss if i may ask? Because the definition of order, the role of women and economy don't have anything to do with each other. Although im in no position to say this, but i suggest you make an actual topic about the area that caught your attention instead of a vague listing. And yes, i have to agree with the ones that spoke before me, 8 months each is not too long, i would say, you were there as a tourists. Not that i know more than you, but judging after roughly 8 months considering it was damn years ago is wrong in my opinion.
Please continue.

Derfel, having never been to Japan I can assure you it is NOT the same as it is in
America or your country.

A+ JackInBox!

Your first mistake is lumping various countries into one 'Asian' grouping. Goes downhill from there.

One thing that did stand out to me as i looked through his photo's of america was just the morning smog that rose everyday in so many of the cites he stayed at in america during his travels there. I've seen worse polution on tv programs of other countries like the smog in Beijing, however i have to admit that the smog in the some of the photo's my fiance took while living america was still pretty bad.

Yes, I know that in big cities (like Los Angeles and New York) do have smog. I also wouldn't want to live in a big city because of that and the noise levels, space problems, etc.

I've heard that the American government owes money to China. I think most of us are just holding our breath now until the next presidential election, which hopefully will bring much-needed changes.